This, to Czerniakow, this simple episode,
was the ultimate of virtue.
(Lanzmann) He is never revolted?
He doesn't bother, or he doesn't express the revolt.
He doesn't express the disgust except with other Jews,
Jews who either deserted the community
by emigrating early,
or Jews who, like Gancwajch, are collaborating with the Germans.
And, for the Germans, he doesn't have words of disgust.
I think he is beyond such words.
He hasn't any criticism of the Germans themselves
and only seldom allows himself to make a remark
which indicates that he opposed something by arguing.
He very seldom argues with the Germans.
He pleads, he appeals, but he doesn't argue with them.
He does argue when he's forced not only to build the wall
but to pay for it.
And he says that, if the wall is being put up as a hygienic measure
to prevent Jewish epidemics from engulfing the Polish or German population outside,
then why is it...
why is it that the Jews have to pay for it?
The people who get the protection should be paying for the medicine.
If the wall is medicine, let the Germans pay.
And Auerswald, the ghetto Kommissar, says that's a very nice argument
that he, Czerniakow, might bring up at an international conference someday,
but, for now, he'll pay for the wall.
Czerniakow writes all this down,
including Auerswald's reply to his own argument.
And that's about the most he ever allows him self to say in criticism
of what the Germans are doing.
So he takes for granted, he assumes, he anticipates,
everything that is happening to the Jews,
including the worst.
(Lanzmann) The Germans had a policy on the Warsaw ghetto.
What was that policy?
You're asking more than I know.
The policy that wound up with extermination,
the Final Solution,
we knew nothing about it.
Our job was to maintain the ghetto,
and try to preserve the Jews as a work force.
The Commission's goal,
in fact, was very different
from the one that later led to extermination.
Yes, but do you know how many people died
in the ghetto each month in 1941?
I don't know now... if I ever knew it.
But you did know. There are exact figures.
I probably knew...
It was 5,000 a month.
- 5,000 a month? - Yes.
- That's a lot. - That's a lot, of course.
But there were far too many people in the ghetto.
- That was it. Far too many. - Far too many?
Far too many.
(Lanzmann) My question is philosophical.
What does a ghetto mean, in your opinion?
(Grassler) History is full of ghettos,
going back centuries, for all I know.
Persecution of the Jews wasn't a German invention,
and it didn't start with World War II.
The Poles persecuted them too.
(Lanzmann) But a ghetto like Warsaw's, in a great capital,
in the heart of the city.
(Grassler) That was unusual.
You say you wanted to maintain the ghetto.
Our mission wasn't to annihilate the ghetto,
but to keep it alive, to maintain it.
What does "alive" mean in such...?
That was the problem. That was the whole problem...
The problem needed to be resolved. I knew that.
But people were dying in the streets.
- There were bodies everywhere. - Yes.
That was the paradox.
- You see it as a paradox? - I'm sure of it.
- Why? Can you explain? - No.
- Why not? - Explain what?
But the fact is...
Jews were being exterminated daily in the ghetto. Czerniakow wrote...
Yes, yes. To maintain it properly,
we'd have needed more substantial rations,
and less crowding.
Why weren't the rations more humane?
Why weren't they?
That was a German decision, no?
There was no real decision to starve the ghetto.
The big decision to exterminate came much later.
(Lanzmann) That's right, later. In 1942.
- Precisely. - Yes.
- Three years later. - Yes.
Our mission, as I recall it,
was to manage the ghetto,
and, naturally, with those inadequate rations,
and the overcrowding,
a high, even excessive death rate was inevitable.
Yes.
What does "maintain" the ghetto mean in such conditions,
the food, sanitation, etc.?
What could the Jews do against such measures?
They couldn't do anything.
(Lanzmann) Czerniakow saw a film before the war
where the captain of a sinking ship
gives order to the orchestra to playjazz.
In the entry of July 8, 1942,
not even two weeks before his death,
he identifies himself as this captain of the sinking ship.
Yes.
Of course, there is no jazz, but there is a kind of children's festival.
There are chess tournaments, yes. There's theatre, a children's festival.
There's everything going on until the last moment.
But, more importantly, these are symbols.
These outward cultural activities, these festivals,
they're not simply morale-building devices,
which is what Czerniakow identifies them to be.
Rather, they are symbolic of the entire posture of the ghetto,
which is in the process of healing, or trying to heal, sick people
who are soon going to be gassed,
which is trying to educate youngsters who will never be growing up,
which is in the process of trying to find work for people and increase employment
in a situation which is doomed to failure.
They are going on as though life will continue.
They have an official faith in the survivability of the ghetto,
even after all indications are to the contrary.
The strategy continues to be:
"We must continue, for this is the only strategy that is left.
"We must minimise the injury, minimise the damage, minimise the losses,
"but we must continue."
And continuity is the only thing, in all of this.
But obviously when he compares himself to this captain of a sinking ship,
he knows that everything is sinking.
He knows.
I think he knew or he sensed or he believed the end was coming
perhaps as early as October 1941,
when he has a note about alarming rumours
as to the fate of Warsaw Jewry in the spring.
This is also when Bischoff, the head of the Transferstelle, tells him
that, after all, a ghetto is only a temporary device,
without specifying for what.
He knows, because in January,
he has premonitions or reports and rumours
about Lithuanians coming.
He is concerned when Auerswald disappears and is going to Berlin
right around January 20, 1942,
which we now know to have been the date
of the Final Solution Conference in Berlin,
the Wannsee Conference.
THE FINAL SOLUTION CONFERENCE WAS HELD HERE
And even though Czerniakow, in Warsaw, behind the walls,
has no idea of such a conference going on in Berlin,
yet he is concerned that Auerswald, the ghetto Kommissar, is going to Berlin.
He can't imagine why,
unless it is for a purpose that bodes no good.
And so, in February, there are more rumours.
In March, the rumours are becoming even more specific.
He now begins to record
the departure of Jews from the Lublin ghetto,
or Mielec,
or Krakow,
and Lwow.
And he recognises
that something may well be in the offing for Warsaw itself.
And every subsequent entry is replete
with the anxiety that he feels.
BELZEC SITE OF THE EXTERMINATION CAMP
(Lanzmann) When Czerniakow hears rumours
about the deportations from Lublin, Lwow and Krakow,
around March 1942,
and we know now that the transports went to Belzec,
does he ask in his diary where they are shipped,
what happens to them?
(Hilberg) No. He never does.
And he never mentions any destination.
But we cannot really decide
that he had no knowledge whatsoever about these camps.
All we know is that he didn't mention them in the diary.
We also know, of course, from other sources,
that the existence of death camps was already known in Warsaw,
certainly by June.
(Lanzmann) Why did Czerniakow commit suicide?
Because he realised there was no future for the ghetto.
He probably saw before I did that the Jews would be killed.
I suppose the Jews already had their excellent secret services.
They were too well informed,
better than we were.
- You think so? - Yes, I do.
- The Jews knew more than you? - I'm convinced of it.
- It's hard to believe. - Yeah, yeah...
The German administration was never informed
of what would happen to the Jews.
When was the first deportation to Treblinka?
Before Auerswald's suicide, I think.
- Auerswald's? - I mean Czerniakow's. Sorry.
July 22.
Those are dates which...
So the deportations began July 22, 1942.
Yes.
To Treblinka.
And Czerniakow killed himself on July 23.
Yes, that is...
- The next day. - The next day.
So that was it, he'd realised
that his idea...
it was his idea, I think, of working in good faith with the Germans,
in the Jews' best interests.
He'd realised this idea, this dream, was destroyed.
- That the idea was a dream? - Yes.
And when the dream faded, he took the logical way out.
(Lanzmann) The last entry takes place how long before his suicide?
(Hilberg) The last entry precedes his death by a few hours.
(Lanzmann) And what does he write?
(Hilberg) "It is three o'clock.
"So far, 4,000 are ready to go.
"The orders are that there must be 9,000 by 4:00."
This is the last entry of a man on the afternoon
of the day that he commits suicide.
(Lanzmann) The first transport of the Jews of Warsaw for Treblinka
was the 22nd of July, 1942.
- And he commits suicide the day after? - That's right.
In other words, on the 22nd, you see,
on the 22nd, he is called in by Sturmbannführer Höfle,
who is in charge of the resettlement staff,
who has come in there for the express purpose
of taking the Jews out of Warsaw.
Höfle tells him on the 22nd...
And, here, incidentally, is another fascinating point.
Czerniakow is so agitated
that he doesn't put the date down correctly.
Instead of saying, "July 22, 1942," he says, "July 22, 1940."
(Clicks tongue)
Höfle calls him in at 10:00,
disconnects the telephones.
Children are removed from the playground opposite the community building.
And then he is told that all Jews, irrespective of sex and age,
with certain exceptions, will be deported to the east.
To the east.
Again, the east.
And by 4:00pm today, a contingent of 6,000 people must be provided,
and this, at the minimum, will be the daily quota.
Now, he's told that at 10:00 in the morning of July 22, 1942.
He then goes on, he keeps appealing.
He wants certain exemptions.
He wants the council staff to be exempt.
He wants the staff of the welfare organisations to be exempt,
and he's terribly worried that the orphans will be deported,
and he repeatedly brings up the orphans.
And, on the next day, he still doesn't have assurance
that the orphans are going to be saved.
Now, if he cannot be the caretaker of the orphanage,
then he has lost his war.
He has lost his struggle.
(Lanzmann) But why the orphans?
They are the most helpless element in the community.
They are the little children, its future, who have lost their parents.
They cannot possibly do anything on their own.
If the orphans do not have exemption, if he doesn't even get the promise,
the words spoken by a German SS officer,
not even assurances, which, as he knows, cannot be counted on,
if he cannot even get the words,
what can he think?
If he cannot take care of the children, what else can he do?
Some people report that
he wrote a note after he closed the book on the diary,
in which he said...
"They want me to kill the children with my own hands."
(Lanzmann) Did you think this idea of a ghetto was a good one?
A sort of self-management, right?
- That's right. - A mini-state?
It worked well.
But it was self-management for death, no?
We know that now. But at the time...
- Even then! - No.
Czerniakow wrote,
"We're puppets, we have no power."
- No power. - Sure, that was...
- You Germans were the overlords. - Yes.
The overlords, the masters.
Obviously.
- Czerniakow was merely a tool. - A tool, yes.
Yes, but a good tool.
Jewish self-management worked well, I can tell you.
It worked well for three years...
1941, 1942, 1943. Two and a half years. And in the end...
- And in the end... - "Worked well" for what?
To what end?
For self-preservation.
No, for death!
- Yes, but... - Self-management, self-preservation...
That's easy to say now.
You admitted the conditions were inhuman.
Atrocious, horrible.
So it was clear even then...
No, extermination wasn't clear.
- Now we see the result. - Extermination isn't so simple.
One step was taken,
then another, and another, and another...
But to understand the process, one must...
I repeat: extermination did not take place in the ghetto, not at first.
Only with the evacuations.
Otherwise, in the ghetto, we would have...
Evacuations?
The evacuations to Treblinka.
The ghetto could have been wiped out with weapons, no?
As it was finally done, after the rebellion.
After I'd left. But at the start...
Mr. Lanzmann, this is getting us nowhere.
We're reaching no new conclusions.
- I don't think we can. - No.
I didn't know then what I know now.
You weren't a nonentity.
- But I was. - You were important.
- You overestimate my role. - No.
You were 2nd to the Commissioner of the Warsaw "Jewish District."
- But I had no power. - It was something.
You were part of the vast German power structure.
Correct. But a small part.
You overestimate the authority of a deputy of 28 then.
- You were 30. - 28.
At 30, you were...
You were mature.
Yes, but for a lawyer who got his degree at 27,
it's just a beginning.
Yes.
- You had a doctorate. - The title proves nothing.
- Did Auerswald have one too? - No.
But the title's irrelevant.
Doctor of Law...
What did you do after the war?
I was with a mountaineering publishing house.
- Is that so? - Yes.
I wrote and published mountain guidebooks.
I published a climbers' magazine.
Is climbing your main interest?
Yes.
- The mountains, the air... - Yes.
The sun, the pure air...
Not like the ghetto air.
(♪Women sing in Yiddish)
♪ The words, the words that I write to you
♪ Are not written with ink, but with tears
♪ The best years are ending now
♪ Are not written with ink, but with tears
♪ The best years are ending now
♪ And are gone, not to return
♪ It is difficult to fix that which is shattered
♪ And it is difficult to unite our love
♪ Oh, show your tears
♪ The fault is not mine
♪ Because it must be so
♪ It must be so, it must be so
♪ We must both separate
♪ It must be so, it must be so
♪ The love that ends for both of us
♪ Do you remember when I left you?
♪ My fate dictated I must leave you
♪ Because in this way I will never again be bothered
NEW YORK - GERTRUDE SCHNEIDER AND HER MOTHER
♪ Because it must be so ♪
LOHAME HAGHETAOT KIBBUTZ MUSEUM
GHETTO FIGHTERS' KIBBUTZ, ISRAEL
JEWISH COMBAT ORGANISATION (JCO) IN THE WARSAW GHETTO
WAS OFFICIALLY FORMED ON JULY 28, 1942.
AFTER THE FIRST MASS DEPORTATION TO TREBLINKA,
WHICH WAS INTERRUPTED ON SEPTEMBER 30,
SOME 60,000 JEWS REMAINED IN THE GHETTO.
ON JANUARY 18, 1943, DEPORTATIONS WERE RESUMED.
DESPITE A SEVERE LACK OF WEAPONS,
THE MEMBERS OF THE JCO CALLED FOR RESISTANCE,
AND STARTED FIGHTING, TO THE GERMANS' TOTAL SURPRISE.
IT LASTED THREE DAYS.
THE NAZIS WITHDREW WITH LOSSES,
ABANDONING WEAPONS THE JEWS GRABBED.
THE DEPORTATIONS WERE STOPPED.
THE GERMANS NOW KNEW
THAT THEY HAD TO FIGHT TO CONQUER THE GHETTO.
THE BATTLE BEGAN ON THE EVENING OF APRIL 19, 1943,
THE EVE OF PESSACH PASSOVER.
IT HAD TO BE A FIGHT TO THE DEATH.
SIMHA ROTTEM, known as "Kajik"
ITZHAK ZUCKERMANN, known as "Antek," 2nd in command of the JCO
(Antek speaks Hebrew)
(Interpreter ♪3, in French) I began drinking after the war.
It was very difficult.
Claude, you asked for my impression.
If you could lick my heart,
it would poison you.
AT THE REQUEST OF MORDECHAI ANIELEWICZ,
COMMANDER-IN-CHIEF OF THE JCO,
ANTEK LEFT THE GHETTO 6 DAYS BEFORE THE GERMAN ATTACK.
HIS MISSION:
TO ASK POLISH RESISTANCE LEADERS TO ARM THE JEWS.
THEY REFUSED.
(Speaks Hebrew)
(Interpreter ♪3) I don't think the human tongue can describe
the horror we went through in the ghetto.
In the streets, if you can call them that,
for nothing was left of the streets,
we had to step over heaps of corpses.
There was no room to pass beside them.
Besides fighting the Germans, we fought hunger and thirst.
We had no contact with the outside world,
we were completely isolated, cut off from the world.
(Continues in Hebrew)
(Interpreter ♪3) We were in such a state that we could no longer understand
the very meaning of why we went on fighting.
We thought of attempting a breakout
to the Aryan part of Warsaw, outside the ghetto.
(Kajik continues in Hebrew)
Just before May 1,
Sigmund and I were sent
to try to contact Antek in Aryan Warsaw.
(Interpreter ♪3 continues) We found a tunnel under Bonifrateska Street
that led out into Aryan Warsaw.
(Kajik continues in Hebrew)
Early in the morning,
we suddenly emerged into a street in broad daylight.
(Kajik continues)
Imagine us on that sunny May 1,
stunned to find ourselves in the street, among normal people.
We'd come from another planet.
(Kajik continues)
People immediatelyjumped on us
because we certainly looked exhausted, skinny, in rags.
Around the ghetto, there were always suspicious Poles who grabbed Jews.
(Kajik continues)
By a miracle, we escaped them.
(Kajik continues)
In Aryan Warsaw,
life went on as naturally and normally as before.
(Kajik continues)
The cafes operated normally,
the restaurants, buses, streetcars...
The movies were open.
(Kajik continues)
The ghetto was an isolated island amid normal life.
(Kajik continues)
(Interpreter) Our job was to contact Itzhak Zuckermann
to try to mount a rescue operation,
to try to save the few fighters who might still be alive in the ghetto.
(Kajik continues)
We managed to contact Zuckermann.
(Kajik continues)
We found two sewer workers.
(Kajik continues)
On the night of May 8-9,
we decided to return to the ghetto
with another buddy, Riszek, and the two sewer workers.
After the curfew, we entered the sewers.
(Kajik continues)
We were entirely at the mercy of the two workmen,
since only they knew the ghetto's underground layout.
(Kajik continues)
Halfway there, they decided to turn back,
they tried to drop us, and we had to threaten them with our guns.
(Kajik continues)
We went on through the sewers...
(Kajik continues)
...until one of the workmen told us we were under the ghetto.
(Kajik continues)
Riszek guarded them so they couldn't escape.
MILA 18 - JCO BUNKER HEADQUARTERS
(Kajik continues)
I raised the manhole cover to go up into the ghetto.
(Kajik continues)
At bunker Mila 18, I missed them by a day.
(Kajik continues)
I had returned the night of May 8-9.
The Germans found the bunker on the morning of the 8th.
WARSAW - MONUMENT TO THE GHETTO FIGHTERS
(Kajik continues)
Most of its survivors committed suicide,
or succumbed to gas in the bunkers.
REPLICA OF MONUMENT TO THE GHETTO FIGHTERS
JERUSALEM
(Kajik continues)
(Interpreter) I went to bunker Franciszkanska 22.
There was no answer when I yelled the password,
so I had to go on through the ghetto.
I suddenly heard a woman calling from the ruins.
(Kajik continues in Hebrew)
(Interpreter) It was darkest night, no lights, you saw nothing.
All the houses were in ruins, and I heard only one voice.
I thought some evil spell had been cast on me,
a woman's voice talking from the rubble.
I circled the ruins.
I didn't look at my watch,
but I must have spent half an hour exploring,
trying to find the woman whose voice guided me,
but, unfortunately, I didn't find her.
- (Lanzmann) Were there fires? - (Interpreter in Hebrew)
(Kajik replies in Hebrew)
Strictly speaking, no, for the flames had died down,
but there was still smoke,
and that awful smell of charred flesh
of people who had surely been burned alive.
I continued on my way,
going to other bunkers in search of fighting units,
but it was the same everywhere.
I'd give the password: "Jan."
(Lanzmann) That's a Polish first name, Jan.
(Speaking Hebrew)
(Interpreter) Right. And I got no answer.
I went from bunker to bunker,
and after walking for hours in the ghetto,
I went back toward the sewers.
- (Lanzmann) Was he alone then? - (Interpreter ♪3 in Hebrew)
Yes, I was alone all the time.
Except for that woman's voice,
and a man I met as I came out of the sewers,
I was alone throughout my tour of the ghetto.
I didn't meet a living soul.
At one point, I recall
feeling a kind of peace, or serenity,
when I said to myself, "I'm the last Jew.
"I'll wait for morning and for the Germans."